Jason R. Thompson – Move from Theoretical DE&I to Practical DE&I by Using HR Data

Connect with Jason:

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Connect with Dwight:

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• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

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• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Diversity and Inclusion Matters: Tactics and Tools to Inspire Equity and Game-Changing Performance
• Western Governors University
• Compensation Consulting
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 6
• HR Data Labs Season 7 Episode 4

• “Diversity is a noun—it’s the outcome of actually managing some [HR] data.”
• “From a strategic point of view . . . if you looked at the [DE&I] data, you would say, ‘In which demographics do we have the best opportunity to grow?’”

Announcer  00:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology, invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record for their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate, and even irreverent, but count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky  00:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. And like always, we try and find people inside and outside the world of human resources to bring you whatever is happening, the latest on what's going on in the world of business and how it affects you. Today we have with us a brilliant man who's going to tell us his journey, as well as kind of the ins and outs of what's going on in data driven DE&I, Jason R. Thompson. Jason, how are you?

 

Jason R. Thompson  01:11

Hey, it's good to be here. I'm doing well. Thank you.

 

David Turetsky  01:14

Jason, tell us a little bit about you, yourself, and how you've gotten to where you are today.

 

Jason R. Thompson  01:19

You know, I'm one of the weird people who've only done diversity almost my entire career. So my first job out of college, actually, in college, even I worked in what was called at that time, a Multicultural Resource Center. So that was like, oh, gosh, like 1987 88. And then I graduated, and they hired me to run the Multicultural Resource Center. And then I went to grad school. And then I bumped around and did some fundraising and things and then ended up working at the University of Colorado, doing diversity. And I went to healthcare, you got to look at committee. Tech Stars, and now Western Governors. So pretty much my whole career.

 

David Turetsky  01:59

And what's fascinating is, if you haven't seen Jason's book, it's called Diversity and Inclusion Matters, Tactics and Tools to Inspire Equity and Game Changing Performance. It's actually a pretty brilliant book with a lot of really amazing examples of what to do in different, I guess you could say, life cycles of DE&I at organizations.

 

Jason R. Thompson  02:20

Yeah, I think you'll find them very practical. The books not theoretical, and I don't do theory, like I think everyone knows diversity is important, right? The current challenge is, what do you want me to do? And so that's the question I've been trying to answer with my book and my work on a daily basis, is what do you want me to do? I know it's important. But what do we do? And I think some of the pushback we're getting now it's indicative that that, okay, you've given me theory for the last 10 years, I still don't know what you want me to do. I know, it's important, what are the practical pieces. And so I really try to focus on that as a diversity leader.

 

David Turetsky  02:51

And so we're going to actually have a link to your book in the show notes. So that if someone hasn't seen it, that they should actually pick it up. I really believe it's a phenomenal read, fascinating read with, again, lots of very practical examples of, you know, wherever you are in your journey on DE&I and it is a journey that we deal with every day that you should, you should definitely read this book. So Jason, one of the things that we do with all of our guests, though, is we ask, What's one fun thing that no one knows about you?

 

Jason R. Thompson  03:20

You know, I've always wanted to be a songwriter. I know that sounds weird. I I don't play any instruments. I don't sing or anything. I just, I love music, obviously. But I just would like to be a songwriter. I don't know why. And I don't have any talent in that space. But it's just something I would like to do.

 

David Turetsky  03:37

So why not?

 

Jason R. Thompson  03:38

I don't know. You know, it's one of those things where it just seems like it's so far out of my ability. Like, I don't actually know how to read music. I don't know how to sing. I don't actually understand I love music in the sense of it's complicated, because everybody has a little piece in it. I don't actually understand how it works. But I've always found it super fascinating. Like, and I love lyrics a lot of times with songs. I'll just read the lyrics. I really enjoyed that piece of it, actually.

 

David Turetsky  04:04

So Jason, I didn't actually start running until I was 50. Because I didn't think I could do it. So I did. And now I've been running and typically when it's nice weather outside, I'm running at least two miles a day. So my advice to you to start running. Try it. Yeah. Start running. But but that's pretty fascinating. And, you know, when you when you actually write a song, you know, just just let me know. I'd love to hear it. Yeah, appreciate that. Yeah. So our topic for today is how to use HR data to actually build a working DNI program that leads to change. We're going to talk about getting from theory to actual practice. Jason, our first question is, how have you done DE&I differently from the people you've seen around you?

 

Jason R. Thompson  04:59

Yeah, there's probably two things that we can defer to, but one is data. So over the last probably 10 or 15 years, I have really focused on using data to create a diversity program. And I always tell people, diversity is a noun, it's the outcome of actually managing some data. And the data you should be managing is who gets hired, how long do this day, and who gets promoted. And every manager actually has some control over that, right. And if you help people manage that, and they use the right data, what I've found, it becomes very empowering. And one of the examples I give, and this is why I say I'm super practical is people don't realize, in order to make an organization more diverse, people have to leave. My job is a good managers keep good people, if you're really good at that, I can't make the organization more diverse, right? Like people have to leave, you have to open those seats up, right. And so there's actually a limit on how diverse a company can get. Most people don't understand that, because they don't understand the data and how it works. But people should still get promoted regardless. Right? That's still happening. And people should still get raises, that still be happening, people should still stay at a relative rate that's relative to their peers. So for instance, the length of stay for African Americans should be equivalent to their white peers. And women should be equivalent, right? And a manager manages that piece. And so that's why I would say my work is different is, I would say most companies that work with usually go wow, I didn't think of it that way. This is liberating. Because they get frustrated with their diversity work, because they look the same two years in a row. And people think, well, that must be failure. And in fact, it could be No, you. You have good, you have low turnover. That's what what happened. All right.

 

David Turetsky  06:32

Jason, let me ask you a practical question about the data. Because everybody who's listened to me knows, I'm not a fan of HR data. Because I think HR data sucks, I think, is actually fundamentally flawed. How do we use the data that we have given the fact that I think you can agree, HR data typically is either old, or it's dirty? Or it's just, it's just not? It's just not there?

 

Jason R. Thompson  06:56

Yeah, exactly. So I'm not trying to say something. But I think you should work with consultants in general, like, who can help you clean your data, as a general recommendation for the reasons you said, Because HR data can't check itself. Like if someone you know, makes a mistake, and someone does their promotion doesn't get in or whatever, there really isn't any. So you kind of need a third party, in many cases, to help with that situation, like and find people that can help you. And so that's one of the challenges I would agree with data is, and then lots of people think, well, I can do it myself, which is the other mistake is you probably can, but it's going to take you forever. And you're not a data scientist. So why you think you know, like care the pros that help you or hire somebody, or, or you know, and so the data pieces you're going to need are internal and external, the external data is who's in the market? Right? How do you compare yourself to the market? Internally, it can be clumsy, as you know, and I think we agree on this piece that like most HR data is kind of clumsy. And I feel like people are a little stubborn about that. Like, we can do it all ourselves, and they're afraid if they share their data, somehow, that's gonna get them in trouble. And like, no, actually, it's going to get keep you out of trouble, because you can do things more preventative, rather than reactive. And that's the mentality sometimes to have data. People think data is reactive, when in fact, it should, it helps you be proactive. And that's a challenge, I think, to get people to overcome anytime it's their fear of that.

 

David Turetsky  08:18

Well, it's also a cost issue, right? I mean, everything costs money, and especially hiring people like us, the consultants to come in and do this work. And that's a lot of times probably one of the bigger reasons why they actually do have to do it themselves. Is there anything practical that if you were working with a company that said, you know, I need to do some of this stuff myself? Is there anything practical that they could do to do it themselves?

 

Jason R. Thompson  08:44

Yeah, I would say this, think of in the context of equity, you should be looking at. We're doing annual reviews every company want to every blog company's annual reviews, you should just pause them and look at it. Do we have equity in our own reviews? Are women getting the same rating relative to their male peers? Are people of color getting the same? Like you have access to that data? Very simple. Promotions? Do we see equity in our promotions? Hiring is tougher, a lot of people do hiring but they do it the wrong way. They think Oh, women make up 50% of the world. So 50% of our hires, and it doesn't work like that. So that part's harder. Even though everybody thinks that's the easiest piece, I can tell you from a practical sense. Most people the way they collect it is wrong, because you need external data to do that piece. internal data will help you with promotions, it will help you with terminations, how long people stay because most of that data is relatively accessible, and you have it that there are some things you can do like that, that are relatively simple and you have access to.

 

David Turetsky  09:36

Yeah, I would actually tell you that some of those calculations on who leaves aren't as easy because people think they know how to actually create the turnover metric, for example, and I found looking to company to company that there's a lot of aptitude in certain companies, but not another's. And so if I were an appoint anybody for something like that, like what's the retention calculation versus turnover? Oxygen, I'd actually look at something like Sherm who has actually published his standards on what those HR metrics look like. But it's really hard for some companies to actually do those fundamental queries underneath that. So that's where I'd say hire a consultant. Yeah?

 

Jason R. Thompson  10:15

No, I hear you, I think you're right, like turning up was one of actually kind of complicated in them, but I guess my, in the practical sense of context, if you have any kind of metric that you're using, you can least try to see if it's applied equity, right. So equity should be the goal. It may not be perfect, but it allows you to at least measure, do we have some sense of equity and how we're treating people in our organization.

 

David Turetsky  10:36

The one other question I would ask you on that is, do you have you ever asked people to look at things like, overtime capability, overtime eligibility? Because I don't mean from the FLSA perspective, I mean, do are managers providing opportunities for overtime? On a diverse basis? Right. And I mean, that specifically gender focus, first of all, people of color Second of all, but, you know, are the opportunities being given equally across the board? To people who, you know, get over it, because overtime is a large percentage for some jobs of their pay? Have you ever looked at that?

 

Jason R. Thompson  11:12

You know, I haven't. But it reminds me of one of the thing, and this is, I think, from a diversity perspective, we see this quite a bit. And overtime is a good example. But another one is, there's always this weird dynamic between who gets which assignments in general, right, like we've looked at that. And that usually leads to your next opportunity is what what's being assigned to who and how. And I think the underlying theme of overtime is kind of the same idea how you assign these types of responsibilities. And then the rub here is, in many cases, though, women, people of color disproportionate are putting in programs that are set Oh, this leadership program, you have two additional uncompensated work that has no credit in the organization. So that type of thing actually makes it worse, because you're asked to do extra work, which doesn't add to anything. It's just Oh, this is a project, we think we're developing you, when in fact, I'd be better off, if you gave me the assignment, that's work related, that would expose me and show to the organization, what I can do, just like the excitement of overtime, and those things, that I'm not a big fan of those development programs for that reason, because they just give you extra uncompensated work that isn't actually seeing as adding to the organization. So as a result, it doesn't actually help your career.

 

David Turetsky  12:26

Well, we can see why it's being done. And there are, you know, at least from the outside, it looks good that you're giving someone the quote on quote, opportunity to increase their skill set. But I get you, what you're saying is, is that sometimes instead of doing something like that, maybe just giving them a stretch assignment, or giving them the opportunity to actually show or develop those skills, practically by doing it, that they be getting it better than than the quote on quote...

 

Jason R. Thompson  12:55

Yeah, cuz an apology, I don't mean to cut you off there. But yeah, I would agree that that's the, that's what should be happening is you already have a mechanism for that. And we know that mechanism leads to promotions. What I found when I have these development programs, because as a diversity officer, you typically have to create those in some level is diversity programs have like unlimited capacity maintenance, like you could put 40 people through it. But you only have maybe two VP hires over a one year period, but you doubt develop 40 People are already four, who aren't going to 38 of them are never gonna get that job, if not 39, right. And then you're three or four years into it. Now you think about you got like 120 participants, and you had six openings. They all look at me like Jason, why are you wasting my time with us. Whereas if they had a work assignment, that would have probably led to that job anyway. And then they still at least feel like my work is being rewarded because it's directly assigned, or these other assignments typically are unconnected to the organization like not directly anyway. And they turn out to be extra work, that's not compensated, that for majority of them won't lead to a promotion, because there are not enough promotions for them.

 

David Turetsky  13:58

And I think what we could do is, I think we're gonna have to schedule a second podcast, you and I talk about diversity in the world of succession planning, because that's, to me that's gets to a whole other can of worms about how do you create the right bench strength? And where do you do it, you know, and enabling the bench to become what it needs to be to fulfill on not only senior level hires, but also throughout an organization in an extremely well thought out way, which we both know that succession plans sometimes are built on the back of a napkin, and sometimes they're not built at all or sometimes actually built thoroughly, very well. And how does diversity get into that so that probably I will park that because I want to, I want to potentially have that is another podcast with you for sure.

 

Announcer  14:51

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David Turetsky  15:02

Let's talk about question two, though, because let's get back to the purpose of, of this podcast, which is about measurement and being able to be able to see where you are. Because when you were at the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee, you actually had developed a DE&I scorecard. How did you use data to actually create that and talk about the impact that that had?

 

Jason R. Thompson  15:24

Yeah, so the US Olympic Committee is complicated. Every sport you see on TV in the US is an independent nonprofit. We're the only country in which our Olympic team is a nonprofit. So then I was tasked with the hard say to launch our diversity program. And the CEO comes to me and says, How are we going to measure this thing? And so I started looking at what data is available. And I said, Well, it would make sense that if you play the sport, and every independent nonprofit that US like, USA volleyball, knows generally who their members are, and who plays volleyball in the country. And I thought, well, since you already have that data, who plays volleyball in the country, if you play, you're probably going to be a coach. And if you play, you're probably going to be an official. If you play, you're probably going to work in the industry. So that pipeline should look like the team. It should look like the board. And so at a fairness if USA hockey, hockey has not historically been very diverse, but at a fairest, shouldn't the board look like the membership? Shouldn't the organization was and so that's what I started organizing. And that's we came with these diversity scorecards. And what I quickly found was, once you could point that out to people, they could align behind it because it made sense to them. Sure. And I'm not trying to throw USA volleyball under the bus. But we looked at USA volleyball, and their data showed 70 80% of their athletes are women. It's disproportionately played by women, USA volleyball, the women's team is literally number one, number two in the world all the time, they're just the best. That's they go to the Olympic Games. And I just did a simple analysis of their coaching staff. They went with literally no women on the coaching staff, not even the trainer, like how is that possible 70% of the athletes, nobody's not one woman in the country is going to be a coach, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't line up just mathematically that that outcome would be hard to come to. Right. And so it was able to sell that quickly. USA Hockey, they had a staff of over 100 people, they didn't have one person of color. And if you think about it, you can work in USA Hockey and be an accountant has nothing to do with the understanding, you know, sure. Marketing, there's all kinds of things in which you don't have to be an expert in hockey to work in that space. So it was able to make change, because I knew exactly what I needed to do. Again, that's where I started, like, You got to be able to answer well, what do I need to do? Well, there's got to be some kind of breakdown. Why are women making a coaching staff? Right? Why is nobody and USA Hockey To their credit, they actually and I can't take all credit for but they now have a diversity director. I mean, they got the, as soon as they started seeing their data, they started seeing like, yeah, you're right. Like, if we're not intentional, it's not going to just happen.

 

David Turetsky  17:47

By the way I'm a member of USA Hockey as a coach. Yeah, I actually understand what you're talking about, because I actually see it happening. And, and there are actually training programs as part of USA Hockey as a coach that we have to go through to basically understand these things. So I'm glad they hired someone based on your activities. Because I like to see, I would love to see more diversity in hockey. And if you look at the places around the US that are actually developing hockey programs, I'm seeing a lot of change in who actually is becoming part of the sport, not just in the world of players, but also in coaching staff and in training staff and other things. And I think you can actually see, we're starting to introduce a little bit more diversity, although the worst one of the worst sports at our ball. But but but we're starting.

 

Jason R. Thompson  18:38

But you're making a good point. So and that's the thing I think two people forget is number one, it's incremental, like you it's going to take a little while to build a fan base. But from a strategic point, as an organization, if you looked at the data, you would say, in which demographics do we have the best opportunity to grow? So a lot of times people think of diversity is like snot content, it's directly connected, I would think any organization would look okay, where are our best opportunities to grow? Where there's geographic, whether it's gender, race would be one of those economic like, there's a lot of different ways to stratify that. And to me, that's what I was able to show through the data is actually this doesn't mean you've done something terrible, because last time we see data that way. It's no how do we become proactive? Where can we be more effective? And that's what the data was able to show them.

 

David Turetsky  19:20

I love what you're going with this because when people start thinking about measuring diversity in their organizations, they're thinking that it's going to paint a bad picture. And the answer is no, it's painting a picture. You put the tag of bad or good on it. What it's going to show you though is it's going to show you to your point opportunities right? Look at the world around you and see because this I think this is the perfect suggestion you made and very practical as well. Look at your constituencies. Are your constituencies matching the opportunities that the people around you have to be a part of either your organization are they part of your customer base, right? Does your customer base are they reflected in your staff? And so if you're measuring it appropriately, at least you have a place to go from there. Right?

 

Jason R. Thompson  20:11

Exactly. And I mean, you can see that we see it in different ways. But look at Walmart, Walmart realized rule America's underserved. And they exploded because of that. It's the same idea. If you look at hockey, African Americans are underserved. Yes, Asians are underserved. Latinos are underserved. A great opportunity to grow the sport, women are participating. You look at wrestling, all these sports had the same opportunity. But all you had to do was take a moment look at your data, and not look at it like I'm people are out to get me but look at it like this. Is my strategy going board?

 

David Turetsky  20:41

Well, because Wouldn't they want to grow their customer base? And if their sport reflected the customer base? Don't you think that that would bring more people in? I mean, it's all about revenue. And a lot of those cases, especially in professional hockey, professional basketball, maybe not so much in the amateurs eye but I imagine that's there as well, right?

 

Jason R. Thompson  20:58

Yeah, exactly. Because I think if you look at who's in your pipeline, that's your future. So the amateur pipeline is immensely important to sports, because that's where your fan base comes from. And I always tell people, you look at soccer in the US, the reason soccer has grown slowly, because it like my dad was in soccer fan. And I find this in most families, if your dad or your mother isn't the fans, you're probably not the only way to soccer to grow, they have to start building in the youngest amateur demographic, right. So that and we can see this now in the US where a lot of kids now they owe their parents played where you know, when I was younger, like nobody's parents played, so it's very small. But once they kind of broke through that. And that's the thing we got to get people to is you got to understand the pace of this, that part of it is I know you want this immediate return, but it's going to take a minute. And it's going to take that process of you know, building that kind of love for sports that more than likely your parents played. That's why you play.

 

David Turetsky  21:53

And my mom loved the New York Rangers, and I used to sit on her lap, we used to watch them play the Los Angeles Kings at 10 o'clock at night. And to me, that was the most fun thing I did as a kid. And that's why I grew my love for hockey. And the one thing I want to tell you about this, Jason, that that really is important. Giving back to the community, like the New York Rangers have the Garden of Dreams Foundation, where they actually get underserved groups across the New York City area, to not only appreciate the sport of hockey, but to get them involved. And they invest a ton of money every year in growing the hockey, not just fan base, but actually the playing base as well. And so that's one of those groups I support financially, because I believe it's really important to get to your point, not only the people playing, but also to build it into their fandom so that they can grow it from there.  Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck, we have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com forward slash HRDL consulting to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today.  Jason, the next question really focuses on kind of the results of where you go with a scorecard. And you saw that the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee took the scorecard. And you were able to do things because of it. How does that happen? Or? And how do you describe that? Because I actually saw that in your book? Where did you go from there? I mean, how does that move forward? How does that scorecard really impact the business,

 

Jason R. Thompson  23:40

I learned a lot from that process. So one was at the usopc, their their board was like we should make these public that he immediately got response from these organizations, because number one, they're, they're in sports, or they're competitive, they want to be better than their peers. Number two, they don't want to be embarrassed by their scorecard. So that, you know, got some motivation. But the other thing I was able to do with it, and this is I think where the data is important is you don't have to boil the ocean, just pick a spot and go, you know, what we're gonna focus on diversity and coaching, or you know, what, we're gonna look at our staff, how do we diversify our staff, or its athletes. And that's what I try to encourage everybody in that when I worked at Duke, just pick one thing, like his coaching staff is whatever it might be. And I continue to do that. Now when I consult or work at Western Governors. You know, we have a leadership guide, and I can see with every leader and say, You know what, your challenge is actually retention, or your challenge is promotion. Don't get distracted with just are you diverse this year versus last year, and that's what most people have focused on. And they get frustrated. That was good example of there's a CEO who wants said, you know, our board will be gender diverse in three years. Well, it didn't happen. Because there aren't board terms. If your of your term is five years, you said a three year horizon. There's not enough turnover in that period of time. And it's funny people to understand that simple math. Yeah, and That's why it didn't work. But we see that in leadership to where people say, Well, if you're committed to diversity, your leadership team will be diverse. Well, of course, it would be. But no leaders are turning over at high rate at companies that are successful. Right? If you want 30%, diversity, you're at 10, you almost have to have 50% turnover of your leadership team. That's failure. Any company that turn is turning over leaders that that rate, something's wrong, right. And so they've set a horizon, and they don't use the data in a way that they can actually execute and achieve. So that's what the scorecard really helped me do. And I would say that's been the basis of my work for the last 10 or 15 years helping companies operationalize this and today do have access to how do you make that work in a way that makes sense, hold leaders accountable things that they can actually do. Don't boil the ocean, right? A lot of times people put in hiring plans across the board for diversity. And like, Yeah, but you don't usually have a diversity problem and entry level jobs. Why are you adding more things there, you don't need to, like be very targeted, know where you need to make change. And that typically gets success and return that people want.

 

David Turetsky  26:01

You know, we talked a little bit about this before about succession. And yes, I definitely want to have another podcast with you about that, but doesn't really talk about and we talked a little bit about training, and maybe getting opportunities before creating the bench to be able to fill in gaps as they appear. You don't have to have perfection in creating that bench, nor are you gonna just populate it with diversity hires or diversity candidates. It has to mirror your organization, right? I mean, it would be good to have a series of people that could fit into roles when they become available. But that's not the solution, right? It's just part of the solution.

 

Jason R. Thompson  26:39

Yeah, I think you're, if you look at your organization, generally, you're right, the first step is like our leadership team should least look like organization, that would be the entry level. And then realize, if we want diversity long term, then it really starts at entry level jobs and our people progressing to our organization, right. And also think about some of the biases, because a lot of times what we see too is, are you willing to have an open conversation about typically, HR directors don't become CEOs? Now there's gonna be some bias, but that's tip a disproportionate, that's where we find women and minorities. Right? So what does that say to like, are you compromised organization saying the people who we think can help us find the best people are not the people we trust with our company? What does that say about our company, and we see this across the board. In most organizations, you rarely see HR people get any other position outside of it. But they'll quickly take, you know, the CFO and make them see you. And people think that's the normal progression. It makes sense. And so we have to have be able to have that transparent conversation, too. But what does that say? What are the inherent biases and how we see positions that has to be coupled with what's your bench strength? Because you're you're going to perpetuate if your best rates always accounting, and that's where we bring our CEOs from exam. There's no diversity there. We shouldn't be surprised that you don't ever get any diversity in your leadership, you have to have that conversation too.

 

David Turetsky  27:56

Absolutely. Jason, this has been an amazing conversation. I think I can keep talking about this for hours. But what we're going to do is I'm definitely inviting you back, because I definitely want to have that other conversation. Is there anything else that you might want to leave the listeners with? Or?

 

Jason R. Thompson  28:19

Well, yeah, I just want to say thanks, I appreciate you having me on the show. That's been a lot of fun. And I'm hoping we can come back and we can do this again.

 

David Turetsky  28:25

Oh, no, you're definitely coming back. Well, I'll be on YouTube. I'm inviting you back to come back and have another... Cool! Everybody, please go out and buy diversity and inclusion matters. It's a really cool resource. And as we talked about before, it's got a lot of practical and very helpful advice at all the levels and you know, you talk and one of the things I'm gonna bring up before we end, you talked about when to bring the CEO in and how to have a plan and how to execute. And I think those are really good practical tips for people no matter what lifecycle you are in your DEIB journey. Thank you so much. Take care. Appreciate you being here.

 

Jason R. Thompson  29:02

Alright, thanks. Enjoy being here.

 

David Turetsky  29:03

And thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer  29:07

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