Robert Mattson – HR Tech 2023 – The Four Ingredients of Masterful Communication

Connect with Robert Mattson:

• 

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Salary.com's Consulting Practice
• INTRIGUE
• Season 6 bonus 7
• Season 6 bonus 5

• “One thing people tend to be bad at is setting painfully clear expectations.”
• “Look at the challenges you have in your communication . . . and always take responsibility that there’s something you can do to improve the situation.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record for their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. On day three of the HR Technology 2023 Conference here in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm sitting with one of my best friends in the entire frickin world, Robert Mattson of INTRIGUE communications

 

Robert Mattson: 1:05

and coaching!

 

David Turetsky: 1:06

and coaching. Robert is one of those people who, if you don't know how to get an idea out of your head, not only can he inspire you, plug intended, but he can also teach you and coach you how to actually do this for yourself. So the thoughts and the ideas are all yours and it comes naturally. How did I do? Is that okay?

 

Robert Mattson: 1:27

I think you didn't amazingly well. And I don't think I need to get that idea out of your head. In fact, I'd like you to keep it in your head, full-time rent free.

 

David Turetsky: 1:33

Oh, no, there's not much space left. So Robert, tell us a little bit about what you're doing with INTRIGUE and also some of the other really cool projects you've got going on?

 

Robert Mattson: 1:42

Well David, I've been fortunate to be on the podcast before. So, people who did listen to that do know that I do a lot of storytelling work.

 

David Turetsky: 1:49

You do.

 

Robert Mattson: 1:49

A lot of it when it comes to the messaging of companies and individuals, whether you are CEO that's trying to figure out how to tell stories better and it's not just your story, it's not your company story, your origin story. It's not how you got the idea for your solution while you're in a cave, like Tony Stark. It's more how do you tell the stories that will resonate with the people that you're trying to overcome hurdles.

 

David Turetsky: 2:15

And you've had a lot of success here at HR Technology, helping people hone their pitch.

 

Robert Mattson: 2:19

I've done a lot. I've actually been walking around and I walk up to booths. I'm here supporting a bunch of clients I have here.

 

David Turetsky: 2:26

Yeah.

 

Robert Mattson: 2:26

And I've walked up the booths. I said, Hey, so tell me what you do. And then they tell me, and then I say, this is what I do. And I give them my own little story that I tell.

 

David Turetsky: 2:36

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 2:36

And then I say can I give you some feedback? And I start by usually going, Okay, who is the person you're trying to get to? Your ideal persona or title at a company, I said, Great, pretend I'm them. Now tell me, how do you change my life? And I say, imagine you're in a time machine. It's six months after they've implemented, all the hiccups and headaches are out of the way and it's working beautifully.

 

David Turetsky: 2:58

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 2:59

What is their life like now and tell me that story.

 

David Turetsky: 3:02

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 3:03

Because you want people to start envisioning.

 

David Turetsky: 3:05

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 3:05

So I have been doing a lot of that. And also doing a lot of looking at people from a kind of a general emotional intelligence communication point of view. Because I've, since we've talked, I've been doing a lot of work facilitating for my friend, Mark Altman at MindsetGo, and he's been bringing me in to do a lot of emotional intelligence facilitation.

 

David Turetsky: 3:26

Which a lot of people need these days.

 

Robert Mattson: 3:28

It's pretty amazing, because I learn as much teaching as I do from anything because I get to look at things in a different way and hear how people view things.

 

David Turetsky: 3:37

Right. Which is kind of amazing, because the people have a lot of platforms right now to speak, as well anonymously as well, which is really bad. And they do.

 

Robert Mattson: 3:48

So David, can I give you it's the four ingredients of communication. Can I share those with you?

 

David Turetsky: 3:52

I'd love it.

 

Robert Mattson: 3:53

And they work anywhere, whether it's face to face, online, some of them are a little stronger face to face, but a lot of them you can bring in. So the four ingredients, the first one is word choice.

 

David Turetsky: 4:04

Okay.

 

Robert Mattson: 4:05

People tend to not think about their word choice, and there are words that trigger us.

 

David Turetsky: 4:09

Okay, yes.

 

Robert Mattson: 4:10

Let's say you're talking to someone, and we've both done this because we both manage people. And you say, hey, you've had a great week. Fantastic, superstar! I can't believe all the stuff you've got done. But there's one thing I want to talk to you about.

 

David Turetsky: 4:23

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 4:23

And the minute you hit the but, it's the ultimate nullifier of all the good things that happened before. So it's that is one of the words. And other thing we both had acquisitions in our past. I've had CEOs walk in and say, Hey, we're really excited about this partnership and acquiring your organization. There are going to be a lot of changes coming. We haven't figured them out yet, but we'll let you know as soon as we do. And when the minute you hear change, what do you think?

 

David Turetsky: 4:49

Uh oh, my job's gone.

 

Robert Mattson: 4:51

Yes, my job is gone. My benefits are decreasing, my comp is getting cut.

 

David Turetsky: 4:55

Or they're just going to move my cheese.

 

Robert Mattson: 4:57

But if they walked in and said, Thank you so much, we're really excited about acquiring your organization. There's a lot of new opportunities coming down the pike. We don't know what they're going to be.

 

David Turetsky: 5:05

It's all possible. It's all positive, I mean.

 

Robert Mattson: 5:07

And one thing people use in emails all the time, and this is a word, please eliminate this from all your emails. Unfortunately. No one ever said, unfortunately, you're getting a huge bonus.

 

David Turetsky: 5:18

Right? Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 5:19

If it's unfortunate, they'll figure it out.

 

David Turetsky: 5:21

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 5:22

So so word choice is an important thing. And you can control that!

 

David Turetsky: 5:25

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 5:26

People don't realize that you can control yourself, you can influence others, and there are things you can control. So word choice then tone. If you had a bad day, if you got a ticket coming into the office, and you're frustrated,

 

David Turetsky: 5:39

Having to go to the office is actually a bad day. Yeah.

 

Robert Mattson: 5:43

I mean, your internal tone is reflected in your external tone. And there's a big difference between Hey, David, how's the project coming? Versus hey, David, how's the project coming?

 

David Turetsky: 5:53

You've been listening in to my conversations.

 

Robert Mattson: 5:55

Absolutely. Yes, there's a camera in your office.

 

David Turetsky: 5:57

Uh Oh.

 

Robert Mattson: 5:58

Yeah. So it's a situation where you have to be mindful of your tone!

 

David Turetsky: 6:02

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 6:03

And going along with that, the third is body language. Now, the interesting thing about body language is, we're in Vegas right now.

 

David Turetsky: 6:10

Yes, we are.

 

Robert Mattson: 6:11

They are poker tables galore.

 

David Turetsky: 6:13

Yes.

 

Robert Mattson: 6:13

And that's where people start to think about body language. What are the tells of the individual, right? They have a good hand or they have a weak hand, right? So it's one of the situations where we all read body language. But one, we're not Sherlock Holmes, we can't tell everything from people at a glance. So you have to confirm body language, right? So let's say we're in a big meeting, David, and I'm presenting, and you're in the back, and you start yawning.

 

David Turetsky: 6:37

Again, you're watching what I do, Robert, it's very scary. Sorry.

 

Robert Mattson: 6:41

I can make an assumption that I'm boring the heck out of you. And I can walk up and said, Hey, David, I know what it's like, I could not sleep last night, either. And if you could answer one or two ways, one, yeah, I was, School of Rock was on, I love that movie. I started watching it, I couldn't turn it off and went to bed at three. Or no, I slept like a baby, I'm fine! If you're tired, I react to that. But if you're not like, okay, I've got to up my game a little bit.

 

David Turetsky: 7:06

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 7:06

So that's reading and confirming body language. But what about writing body language? So let's say you're in a meeting, and the CEO is talking about policy changes. And they start chatting about it and you're leaning in and you're paying attention. And then at one point, you lean back and you fold your arms. And everyone who knows you and trust you in that room is saying David doesn't agree with that.

 

David Turetsky: 7:29

Exactly.

 

Robert Mattson: 7:31

And it could be David is cold, or David has a lower back strain from raking his lawn this weekend.

 

David Turetsky: 7:38

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 7:38

So again, confirm, but be aware of your your body language that people are reading you constantly. And the last thing, and I found that a lot here, is listening.

 

David Turetsky: 7:52

What?

 

Robert Mattson: 7:53

Listening.

 

David Turetsky: 7:53

What?

 

Robert Mattson: 7:54

Listening.

 

David Turetsky: 7:55

Oh, okay.

 

Robert Mattson: 7:55

There you go. I was gonna ride that to the wheels came off. There are different types of listeners.

 

David Turetsky: 8:01

Yes.

 

Robert Mattson: 8:01

There are many styles, there are many models that you can view. I cherry picked one to create my own. But my first lowest level is the competitive listener. They're waiting for you to take a breath so they can talk.

 

David Turetsky: 8:14

Yes, there are those.

 

Robert Mattson: 8:16

Exactly. So there are the competitive listeners. And then there, we both have children.

 

David Turetsky: 8:21

Yes, we do.

 

Robert Mattson: 8:22

There are the selective listeners.

 

David Turetsky: 8:25

Yes.

 

Robert Mattson: 8:25

Yes, exactly. So the people that are just saying, Oh, I'll listen to this section but I'm not going to pay attention to that.

 

David Turetsky: 8:31

Right. Well, it's usually, it usually has to have some reward for them in mind and filtering out all the stuff that they don't want to hear like,

 

Robert Mattson: 8:40

Well, then we get back to storytelling and outside in thinking. So there are the selective listeners. There are the informational listeners, people who are getting every bit of data you're giving to them. The next level are the more comprehensive listeners, they're actually listening to your tone. They're processing. They're saying, Oh, what, what does he mean by that?

 

David Turetsky: 8:57

Yeah.

 

Robert Mattson: 8:58

And then the final one is the people who are actually reflective listening. They're not only listening and getting everything you're saying, but they're also going back to you and saying, Oh, let me, can I summarize what you just told me to make sure I understand?

 

David Turetsky: 9:10

Right. I think we go through cycles of that in certain conversations. There are people who they live one, because they're just in a different mindset. But there are a lot of people who may actually take on different pieces of that at different times of the conversation like you were mentioning. I'm sitting in a room I'm listening to someone talk. Either my back hurts or I don't agree with somebody and I change. So how do we keep people engaged so that we keep a consistency on which level we want them? To be able to be utilizing in our in our communications.

 

Robert Mattson: 9:57

The key to keep people engaged is one, knowing the audience first, knowing what's going to interest them. And then it's a hard thing to say, but pander to them a little bit.

 

David Turetsky: 10:07

Yes.

 

Robert Mattson: 10:08

People are all selfish. They want something out of the conversation. So make sure that you are taking care of things that are going to get their attention early, right? And it might be the elephant in the room. It might be something like, I know what you're thinking. I had a CEO after we got acquired at a company in the past, that opened up his conversations saying, let's start with your jobs. Because if I don't tell you what's gonna happen to your jobs, you're not going to listen to anything else.

 

David Turetsky: 10:34

You don't care. Yeah. Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 10:35

So starting with the elephant the room, starting with their selfish motivations and giving them value!

 

David Turetsky: 10:39

Right? Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 10:41

Every conversation should start with how am I giving this person some value?

 

David Turetsky: 10:44

Unfortunately, though, there are a lot of meetings where the WIIFM isn't obvious. And in many of those meetings, one of the questions that somebody has to ask in the audience is, why are we having this meeting? There's nothing that's coming out of this, this is just informational. Just send us a frickin email!

 

Robert Mattson: 11:00

So you're absolutely right, that would be beneficial. But if you still are having that meeting, can you, I don't want to say sugarcoat, but can you wrap it in something more interesting?

 

David Turetsky: 11:11

Like, like bacon wrapped scallops for people who eat that?

 

Robert Mattson: 11:14

I'm so hungry right now. But it's the situation if you're, if you're getting someone an update on something, some dry data, right? The data is there for a reason. Eventually, it affects somebody. So jump from just the data, don't tell them how you figured it out, they don't care, get to the point of how this data can affect their lives. And tell that story, and then insert the data into that story.

 

David Turetsky: 11:36

Sure. But that takes a level of skill, Robert, that I think it may be easy for some of us. And it may be very difficult for others, like I'm presenting today at 1:30. And one of the first things you were talking about, as we were discussing this is, you know, obviously, you're talking about the WIIFM and you're talking about, you know, making sure that you're pandering to the audience, and things like that. I try and start off the conversation on a humorous note, to invite them in. And then I walk through the crowd, and, and look at them in the eye to see who's paying attention, who's not. And I make a joke at the beginning to say, I'm gonna walk around, and I'm gonna see if you're awake. And if you're not paying attention, I'm gonna throw an eraser at you. Does that remind you of something? And someone will shout out, is this school? And I say yes. And it's also not legal there either. But I'm going to walk around, and I'm going to try and keep your attention. Because you know, you've been in those presentations before, too.

 

Robert Mattson: 12:36

Yes, sure.

 

David Turetsky: 12:36

You know how difficult it is whether it's 40 people or 400. And so the question I want to ask is going back to where you were, is the structure of a meeting, the time of a meeting, the timing of the meeting? Meaning is it before lunch? Is it right before lunch? Or is it right after lunch? All those things play into the emotion, the information being shared, the messages being received. So I guess my question back to you is, is there an optimal time for positive messages, for negative messages, or for just having the damn meeting? Like, like 4: 13:13, 30 on a Friday night, during the summertime?

 

Robert Mattson: 13:17

So positive, positive messaging is good anytime. Negative messaging, that's when it gets a little stickier. And as much as I hate to say, it depends, I'm gonna give you some examples of things that can happen. I was working with a company, they're signmaker, they actually make signs for buildings in for the state of Massachusetts. Great, great organization. And we talked about location for having conversations. And I said, Okay, if you're going to have a conversation, in that reprimand somebody or an official, this is not good conversation, bring in HR.

 

David Turetsky: 13:53

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 13:54

Where do you have it? Well, we have in our boardroom, okay. Do you have other meetings in that boardroom? Yeah. So how does someone know that this is the bad place? That they are, that they know that presupposition that they are going to have a bad experience?

 

David Turetsky: 14:08

Oh, shit, I'm gonna bring tissues to this one.

 

Robert Mattson: 14:09

Exactly. It's one of the situations where you need to let them know that they are in a comfortable area. And one of the things is location. The other thing is time giving bad news on a Friday night, or even at night at all, it depends on your goal. I would not give people bad news on a Friday night if I can at all avoid it.

 

David Turetsky: 14:29

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 14:30

But I might give someone if they need to think about something and come up with ideas.

 

David Turetsky: 14:34

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 14:34

I might give them something on a Friday afternoon. Because I want to have a conversation about it in the office before they go home.

 

David Turetsky: 14:41

Right? But but if I get called into my boss's office, or if they schedule a meeting with HR and the boss and me in an afternoon, it's not you got promoted. It's a bad thing. And you can read them and you you dread going, you're already down. You're already angry. And they start off the meeting going, Hey, David, how you doing? You're like, can we just get to it?

 

Robert Mattson: 15:06

The elephant in the room!

 

David Turetsky: 15:07

Exactly. We just get to it. What the hell is this about? And it could be Oh, you got promoted! Jesus, then why would you add, What? What? You set me up for this! What the hell? And so I guess the question is, you were talking about emotional intelligence before: context.

 

Robert Mattson: 15:23

Absolutely. I got a text the other day from someone that I do work for at quarter of 10 at night. It says, Do you have a few minutes?

 

David Turetsky: 15:32

No.

 

Robert Mattson: 15:33

I did not see that until I woke up at 6am the next morning, and it was too early to contact them. So I'm thinking what went wrong? Why, what went wrong?

 

David Turetsky: 15:42

But why? If they, if they texted you at 10 o'clock at night, then you texting them back at 6 o'clock in the morning seems absolutely rational!

 

Robert Mattson: 15:50

Well, the thing is, this is actually a very good communicator.

 

David Turetsky: 15:52

Oh okay.

 

Robert Mattson: 15:53

But they were in a rush.

 

David Turetsky: 15:55

Okay.

 

Robert Mattson: 15:56

And you know, what the text was about? Hey, I've got tickets to the Celtics game!

 

David Turetsky: 16:00

Tonight?

 

Robert Mattson: 16:01

He was trying to get me to take them before he gave him to somebody else. So he was doing me a solid.

 

David Turetsky: 16:06

But why wouldn't you just put that in the context of the message?

 

Robert Mattson: 16:09

Exactly, because people are thinking so much about what they're saying, not what people are hearing.

 

David Turetsky: 16:14

Yeah.

 

Robert Mattson: 16:15

And especially in HR, where everything is sensitive?

 

David Turetsky: 16:18

Oh, my God. Yeah. Can you tell us when you get called in you know, like that for, you know, really good stuff. So we know when it's like that.

 

Robert Mattson: 16:28

It's seldom when you get a message from HR to saying, Hey, we just found out you're the High Chancellor of Stockholm. No, that doesn't happen.

 

David Turetsky: 16:35

Hey, you have options, you have an extra, they're really in the money!

 

Robert Mattson: 16:38

There's a 17% raise that we didn't tell you about! No, that doesn't happen!

 

David Turetsky: 16:41

You've never cashed your check with your bonus!

 

Robert Mattson: 16:43

So it's knowing who you are, knowing your relationship, and then giving you enough information saying, just because I'm an HR, it potentially has a negative context.

 

David Turetsky: 16:52

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 16:53

So make sure that you are over communicating that, enough context to make people feel comfortable. Now, sometimes it is bad news, right? And you can't say, Oh, it's nothing bad. And then lower the hammer.

 

David Turetsky: 17:05

Right, right. Context is everything though in the bad. And by the way, there are lots of ways of spinning bad news, and not to make them good. But yeah, to at least, you know, manage the suffering and be able to manage the the end result. So you're not destroying your relationship with that person, because later on, you may want them back.

 

Robert Mattson: 17:23

And also communication. When we have to give bad news, oftentimes, we push it off. It's a hard thing to do. We don't want to deal with it. We don't want to be the bearer of bad news. So yeah, it's so easy to push off. And it's like nope, bite the bullet go in, get it done.

 

Announcer: 17:41

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David Turetsky: 17:52

As a manager, though, I've never shied away from it. And I've always tried to see the positives as well as the negatives. Like I've had conversations with people, which kind of surprised me that they turned into bad news when I thought they'd be at least, if not good news, at least neutral. Like, for example, I was giving someone a 10% increase once. And I'm not going to use names. But I gave someone a 10% increase once and they said, is that it? And I said, Well, you know our budget's four? So I had to give a lot of zeros for you to get 10. And the answer back was, well, I expected more. I didn't know your expectations, you didn't tell me that. And I went to the mat to get you this because this was out of bounds. And so you know, even when you're prepared to give the best, be prepared as the giver of the information to receive not the best reaction and not go off the rails.

 

Robert Mattson: 18:48

So here's something David, where in this case would be difficult for you to ask for her, her or his expectation. But in most cases people can. One thing people tend to be bad at is setting painfully clear expectations. All the HR people what what SMART goals are. But do you use them when you're asking for someone to send you a document in an email?

 

David Turetsky: 19:09

No.

 

Robert Mattson: 19:10

No, oftentimes, could you send me this? Can you send me this by Friday at noon? Can you send me this by Friday at noon, and I need it in this format. So the clarity is really important there. But people do not bring expectation setting in to a lot of their day to day life. And whether that's with you, your children, your significant other, your insignificant other, whatever you got.

 

David Turetsky: 19:33

Well, they're trying to make you, you're trying to make them read your mind. And they don't know the context. Like for example, that email you're talking about, if they knew that you had to turn it around and add other things to it, and then get it to the bosses for a very important meeting. And a missed deadline for that means bad things for the company, then that context is important! And then they can actually set expectations and maybe even change their priorities in order to get it done.

 

Robert Mattson: 20:02

Yeah, expectation setting is one of the biggest holes in communication. And especially for our friends in HR. It's not just for annual performance reviews.

 

David Turetsky: 20:11

And you know, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I certainly have told others that when I sit down with someone, and we're talking about anything, good news, bad news or anything, but it's an official setting, whether it's performance setting, whether it's giving performance evaluation, feedback, or whatever, I always say, I'm not going to start with, did you see what happened in the game last night? It's not about anything else other than, let's get the official stuff done. Now deliver the message, deliver the message factually. You can be emotional about it but don't go in with emotion, go in both levelheaded, both mature, both reasonable and rational. And that's why I start the conversation with, are you ready to have this conversation?

 

Robert Mattson: 20:47

It's a great question.

 

David Turetsky: 20:49

Because even the best news, you got fives across the board, if they're in a terrible mood, they had a fight with their spouse, they had a they have problems at home. They're not ready to receive it. It's not going to end well.

 

Robert Mattson: 21:01

But the thing is, and this is something David, I think we've chatted about in the past way back in the day when we were doing a lot of talent management stuff. And I firmly believe this, a performance review should be a summary, it should have no surprises.

 

David Turetsky: 21:14

Exactly.

 

Robert Mattson: 21:15

It's like they should be walking in relaxed because all this is is a summary of all the conversations that we've been having over the course of the year.

 

David Turetsky: 21:22

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 21:23

And that's when you think about the year long performance conversation, which is what everyone is trying to do. But often managers are not great at it.

 

David Turetsky: 21:31

Well, there's also the recency effect of did I screw something up in the last two weeks? Or did I do something great in the last two weeks, but I screwed something up a month before? A lot of people tend to forget those things.

 

Robert Mattson: 21:42

I used to refer to it as the May Superstar. So in May they were amazing. But in December they struggled.

 

David Turetsky: 21:48

Yes.

 

Robert Mattson: 21:48

And recency effect.

 

David Turetsky: 21:50

Yes, exactly.

 

Robert Mattson: 21:51

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 21:52

But But you're right, you're absolutely right. A lot of those conversations should be ongoing. They shouldn't be surprises, they should be summaries. And, again fait accompli? It we both know what's going to happen. Unfortunately, it almost never happens that way.

 

Robert Mattson: 22:06

Yeah. And then you get to the point. And I've been, I've been facilitating a lot of this emotional intelligence stuff. So how do you deal with conflict?

 

David Turetsky: 22:14

Yeah.

 

Robert Mattson: 22:14

And the best way of dealing with conflict is making sure it doesn't happen. Setting clear expectations, communicating well, making sure people know what's expected of them. And but then if you do you have conflict, do you have a plan when conflict happens?

 

David Turetsky: 22:27

And by the way, that's not having a box of tissues on your desk.

 

Robert Mattson: 22:29

No.

 

David Turetsky: 22:30

What's wrong?

 

Robert Mattson: 22:33

Before we talk, here's the tissue.

 

David Turetsky: 22:34

Yes, yes, by the way, here's an envelope.

 

Robert Mattson: 22:38

Don't open it till we're done.

 

David Turetsky: 22:39

Yes. Right. But but it's got instructions in it. And yes, here's a box.

 

Robert Mattson: 22:46

You might need this.

 

David Turetsky: 22:47

You'll, but you will definitely need this on your way out the door. By the way, you see that guy there? He's gonna help you. What is it? You're getting promoted into that corner office, they're going to help you move. And this is your new card key gets you a higher level. Oh my god, I thought I was getting fired! Exactly. You're not, no.

 

Robert Mattson: 23:05

Yeah, it's sometimes being straightforward. Being being witty is not the best choice sometimes.

 

David Turetsky: 23:09

Right? Burying the lede. But this is unfortunately, we have this has that kind of relationship that we have around HR conversations, is that they're usually not positive. They usually miss expectations. They're usually not aligned with everything that we've talked about the entire year. So I kind of go back to all the things we've just talked about. Being an emotionally intelligent person, as a boss, having skills as a boss means that all of the things that you and I have just talked about, about getting the right expectation set, getting the right story, getting the right emotional, you know, body language and emotional reaction to people. It really takes a lot! It's a lot of hard work, isn't it?

 

Robert Mattson: 23:55

But it is because you have to think so much outside of yourself. And you have to think about the effects of things and what levers, what happened before. And you're trying to craft something, instead of taking the easy path. The easy path is, this is what I need to say. I was talking to a client the other day. And she said to me, she said, I said Are you a good communicator? And she said, I am I'm very clear in the way I talk and I get the message across very, very clearly. Like, Great, let's talk about not what you say but what they hear.

 

David Turetsky: 24:24

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 24:25

And we're on the path where someone who is a very good technical communicator now has to become an emotionally intelligent communicator.

 

David Turetsky: 24:32

Right. Right. Right. Well, I think you've heard some of these podcasts, you know, you've been on them. I'm not the best communicator in the world. I know my flaws. And that's the reason why I love having a friend like you who can actually point them out to me. Robert is really nice about it though, he gives when he points out my flaws. But but it also I learn so much when we interact because I need to be better. I need to get better. And I acknowledge that sometimes I'm not the best communicator. And I think that's one way, I know I sound like I'm coming from an Alcoholic Anonymous meeting. I know there are steps to get there. I know one of the really first steps is acknowledging you need the help in order to be able to get there. So that you get past some of those hurdles that you could actually have hurt people on in the past, because you're not effectively communicating, you're not getting your message across. You're unintentionally using language that could actually destroy your relationship, right? Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck, we have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. What is your ideal methodology of being able to open someone's awareness of, you need some work on this? How do you how do you overcome that? How do you get that message to someone?

 

Robert Mattson: 26:13

It's very difficult. If you're not, if you don't have self awareness that you have a challenge. What I would say is look at the challenges that you have in your communication. And the first thing is don't think it's a them problem. Always take responsibility that there's something you can do to improve the situation.

 

David Turetsky: 26:32

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 26:33

So if you have a problem with somebody, think of them as the hero of their own story, they're not the villain. They are just doing their process and you're running yours, right? And then say, What can I change in my process? And then you're kind of A/B testing. Where you try it and see what happens and then be open to feedback.

 

David Turetsky: 26:50

And different generations, different types of people, different cultures will react differently to you. You may be spot on with certain cultures, but completely off in others, right?

 

Robert Mattson: 27:00

It's very true, because there are, we have different goals systems, not goal systems, but value systems. And the value system, let's say I'm a, I tend to be on time or early and that is my value system. Right? I have friends that come from cultures, where usually I come, my people come from a very cold place. Where if you

 

David Turetsky: 27:20

With really, really fast put together furniture if you read the instructions.

 

Robert Mattson: 27:23

And then there are people that come from more tropical climates, which tend to be just

 

David Turetsky: 27:27

laid back.

 

Robert Mattson: 27:28

They tend to be more laid back.

 

David Turetsky: 27:29

Yeah.

 

Robert Mattson: 27:29

And so there's constants were being 5, 10, half hour late, like well party starts when I get there, right? And I'm like, No, if you are a minute late, you are disrespecting me.

 

David Turetsky: 27:39

Yes.

 

Robert Mattson: 27:40

And that's a situation where I had to accept like, no, they're not disrespecting anyone. That is their culture. Right? And I, if I say, you have to be there 15 minutes early, I'm disrespecting them. So we have to find a middle ground.

 

David Turetsky: 27:55

Right or because not everybody is intentional with it. They at least have to understand that they need to compromise.

 

Robert Mattson: 28:07

Yep.

 

David Turetsky: 28:08

I've been on lines before I you may have waited on lines before too.

 

Robert Mattson: 28:11

I wait in lines. I'm not from New York.

 

David Turetsky: 28:12

I get in the plane, I don't get on the plane, that's somebody else's joke. But when you're standing on line, and if it's usually a long line, there's obviously complaints.

 

Robert Mattson: 28:26

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 28:26

When you go to Disney, and you're standing on line for one of the Star Wars exhibits, and they say to you, it's going to take 90 minutes from this point. And it freakin takes 90 minutes from that point. You don't have people online going, grumble, grumble, grumble. You have, Ooh, I'm so excited, because the expectation's been set. And they communicate and communicate.

 

Robert Mattson: 28:44

Exactly. There's in the app for the Disney map that says this is gonna take you 90 minutes, and it's freaking dead on accurate. It's crazy accurate. But, you know, and they're setting expectations over and over again. I don't think people have the awareness about setting expectations either in how they communicate, how they're choosing to treat other people like that. And that all sets up, like if you're waiting for me and you're like, dammit, David, you're late again. And then you sit down and we start talking, and you're like, in the back of your mind, you're like, He's late. He's not even gonna acknowledge, he's not gonna apologize to me. When I'm like, oh my god, I just had five people who were haranguing me who I couldn't get out of the conversation. I'm so sorry. And you're like, Oh, okay. He acknowledged it, he understands my feelings. Now we can get on with the conversation. Yep. It lets you understand where the other person is coming from.

 

David Turetsky: 29:39

Exactly.

 

Robert Mattson: 29:39

And that's one of the things is, also the worst expectations are the ones that are unsaid. Because if someone, you let someone in in traffic and you expect a thank you wave.

 

David Turetsky: 29:49

And then you curse them.

 

Robert Mattson: 29:50

And then they don't, and then you're all mad. It's like, okay, maybe they're in a hurry. Maybe they didn't have to moment maybe that's not their

 

David Turetsky: 29:57

or maybe they just didn't see you.

 

Robert Mattson: 29:58

Yeah, it's one of those things, they're not trying to, they're not after you. They're not trying to be mean. That's just what

 

David Turetsky: 30:04

Well they might be, but, but that's a different Hopefully not. The people who are late. Guess what? If story. they're, if people are late, regardless of their culture, the culture they grew up in, if people tend to be late, you can say, Hey, I would really appreciate if you could be here at when we start the meeting, because we're wasting some people's time. Let them know what's going on! And then if they don't, then you have another conversation, right? And this is kind of the three step conversation, conversation. Do I live with it? Do I? I can't get them to change, so do I live with it? Or do I just have to make a change outside of that? To me, the worst thing that you can do in that though, is swallow it and let it fester.

 

Robert Mattson: 30:44

Oh, absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 30:45

And then it affects decision making you're making later when it was an innocent thing that now has been blown out of proportion and become a wedge.

 

Robert Mattson: 30:54

So the funny thing David is, so let's say that happens. So let's say I'm late. First time, it doesn't bother you. You say not a big deal. And you swallow it. Third time, a second time happens again, he's busy. I'm not gonna say anything. Third time, you're like, I gotta say something. You're coming at me with third time energy. And this is the first time I'm hearing about it. And I'm like, why are you blowing up?

 

David Turetsky: 31:14

Right, exactly.

 

Robert Mattson: 31:15

But for you, it's no, this has been festering. So yes, it's very important to try to be open with these things.

 

David Turetsky: 31:22

Right.

 

Robert Mattson: 31:22

But in a way that's constructive, the here I'll give you the cheat code. Be curious and non judgmental.

 

David Turetsky: 31:29

And that's a very difficult thing in 2023, isn't it?

 

Robert Mattson: 31:32

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 31:33

Judgment is, we're about judgment. You know, people love you know, America's Got Talent. They love being able to vote by phone. They love giving their feedback on anonymous websites where they can say whatever they want. We take everything so personally.

 

Robert Mattson: 31:50

Yeah, absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 31:52

So you're saying just chill the hell out?

 

Robert Mattson: 31:54

I'm saying try to understand where they're coming from.

 

David Turetsky: 31:56

Robert, thank you so much. Before we end, I want to say I acknowledge that yesterday, I made you wait twice to do this podcast. And I would acknowledge the fact that I wasted your time. And I'm sorry about that.

 

Robert Mattson: 32:18

And I apologize for when I was supposed to be here in the beginning and I had a client emergency I had to deal with it and I couldn't make it. But I did tell you at least, even though it was a few minutes late.

 

David Turetsky: 32:27

That's okay.

 

Robert Mattson: 32:28

So I thank you for your consideration.

 

David Turetsky: 32:29

I love my friend Robert. I will always love my friend Robert. He makes me a better human. Thank you, Robert, for being on our show.

 

Robert Mattson: 32:36

Thanks, David. Always a pleasure.

 

David Turetsky: 32:38

Take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 32:40

That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the episode, please subscribe. And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way. Thank you for joining us this week, and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe.